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Other IM was disappeared afater the installation of SC


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#1 Kazu

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 01:27 AM

I'm using a Japanese commercial Input Method, ATOK (by Justsystem). When I installed or updated Spell Catcher X,
the Japanese input method disappeared from the list, and I needed to reinstall the IM and reboot my Mac to
make it work every time. Is there any way to avoid to be erased the other IM during the installations?

Thanks,

Kazuo

#2 Evan Gross

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 01:45 AM

I'm using a Japanese commercial Input Method, ATOK (by Justsystem). When I installed or updated Spell Catcher X,
the Japanese input method disappeared from the list, and I needed to reinstall the IM and reboot my Mac to
make it work every time. Is there any way to avoid to be erased the other IM during the installations?

Thanks,

Kazuo

Well, Spell Catcher certainly does not uninstall any other input methods - are you certain that it was actually removed from your hard drive?

There are numerous bugs in Mac OS X that could cause an input method from appearing in the list in System Preferences - at least in Mac OS X 10.4.x and 10.5.x (Tiger and Leopard).

What version of Mac OS X are you using? Have you seen this happen more than once?

#3 Kazu

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:35 AM

Well, Spell Catcher certainly does not uninstall any other input methods - are you certain that it was actually removed from your hard drive?

There are numerous bugs in Mac OS X that could cause an input method from appearing in the list in System Preferences - at least in Mac OS X 10.4.x and 10.5.x (Tiger and Leopard).

What version of Mac OS X are you using? Have you seen this happen more than once?


Thank you for your quick reply.
I don't know if it was removed from my hard drive. Is there any specific folder that IM is installed in?
I'm using Mac OS X 10.6.4.
I installed and updated Spell Catcher several times, and my IM was disappeared every time.
Now I don't want to click update button...

Thanks,

Kazuo

#4 Evan Gross

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:03 PM

Thank you for your quick reply.
I don't know if it was removed from my hard drive. Is there any specific folder that IM is installed in?
I'm using Mac OS X 10.6.4.
I installed and updated Spell Catcher several times, and my IM was disappeared every time.
Now I don't want to click update button...

Thanks,

Kazuo

Input methods are generally stored on your (top-level) /Library/Components folder, (HOME) ~/Library/Components folder or (top-level) /Library/Input Methods folder, (HOME) ~/Library/Input Methods folder. Can you take a look and tell me where that other input method is located?

On Snow Leopard, almost all of the input method=related bugs in Mac OS X have been fixed. So I'm not sure what's going on. Please let me know what happens the next time you install or update Spell Catcher.

Also give me a link so I can download and test with that input method myself.

#5 Kazu

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 01:50 AM

Input methods are generally stored on your (top-level) /Library/Components folder, (HOME) ~/Library/Components folder or (top-level) /Library/Input Methods folder, (HOME) ~/Library/Input Methods folder. Can you take a look and tell me where that other input method is located?

On Snow Leopard, almost all of the input method=related bugs in Mac OS X have been fixed. So I'm not sure what's going on. Please let me know what happens the next time you install or update Spell Catcher.

Also give me a link so I can download and test with that input method myself.


I found the Japanese input method stored on /Library/Input Methods. After the installation of SC
the Japanese IM on the folder was not erased, but that was disappeared from the list and I can not switch.

You can download the demo, but that is a bother. Here is the site.
https://www.justsyst...l711101&w=olcam
Of course, unfortunately Japanese only. You need to enter your e-mail address on the first box.
At the bottom of the site you need to check the checkbox and then click the first button, but not
the second button (the second one is for canceling the download). You'll receive an e-mail from the company with the
link for the download. At the download site click a button with a red word.

Once you register on the website, they will start to send e-mails. You can cancel it,
but there are several steps. Go to the cancelation site,
https://www.justsyst...d=trial711_stop
enter your e-mail on the first box, and then click a green button.
On the second page uncheck a check box and click a button.

Thanks,

Kazuo

#6 Evan Gross

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 02:36 AM

I found the Japanese input method stored on /Library/Input Methods. After the installation of SC
the Japanese IM on the folder was not erased, but that was disappeared from the list and I can not switch.

You can download the demo, but that is a bother. Here is the site.
https://www.justsyst...l711101&w=olcam
Of course, unfortunately Japanese only. You need to enter your e-mail address on the first box.
At the bottom of the site you need to check the checkbox and then click the first button, but not
the second button (the second one is for canceling the download). You'll receive an e-mail from the company with the
link for the download. At the download site click a button with a red word.

Once you register on the website, they will start to send e-mails. You can cancel it,
but there are several steps. Go to the cancelation site,
https://www.justsyst...d=trial711_stop
enter your e-mail on the first box, and then click a green button.
On the second page uncheck a check box and click a button.

Thanks,

Kazuo

I'm getting an Error 500 from the first link, so can't proceed. Can you see if there's a different URL?

#7 Evan Gross

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 03:06 AM

I found the Japanese input method stored on /Library/Input Methods. After the installation of SC
the Japanese IM on the folder was not erased, but that was disappeared from the list and I can not switch.

You can download the demo, but that is a bother. Here is the site.
https://www.justsyst...l711101&w=olcam
Of course, unfortunately Japanese only. You need to enter your e-mail address on the first box.
At the bottom of the site you need to check the checkbox and then click the first button, but not
the second button (the second one is for canceling the download). You'll receive an e-mail from the company with the
link for the download. At the download site click a button with a red word.

Once you register on the website, they will start to send e-mails. You can cancel it,
but there are several steps. Go to the cancelation site,
https://www.justsyst...d=trial711_stop
enter your e-mail on the first box, and then click a green button.
On the second page uncheck a check box and click a button.

Thanks,

Kazuo

Never mind, I was able to reproduce this with an Apple input method sample that I copied to (top level) /Library/Input Methods. Looks like a Snow Leopard bug (one I reported some time ago), but I haven't fully investigated what's going on.

I was able to work-around it by moving the input method out onto the Desktop, then back into /Library/Input Methods - although the results seem to vary for some reason.

I didn't see the problem if the input method was placed into my (HOME) ~/Library/Input Methods folder.

See if either of the two approaches works for you.

#8 Evan Gross

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 11:20 PM

Thank you for your quick reply.
I don't know if it was removed from my hard drive. Is there any specific folder that IM is installed in?
I'm using Mac OS X 10.6.4.
I installed and updated Spell Catcher several times, and my IM was disappeared every time.
Now I don't want to click update button...

Thanks,

Kazuo

OK, after more investigation it looks like a Snow Leopard bug (not the one I previously thought it was, something I haven't run into until now). Seems that when Spell Catcher calls the Mac OS X API to register its input method, any input methods that reside in /Library/Input Methods will disappear from the list of Input Sources.

This doesn't happen for those stored in (HOME) ~/Library/Input Methods - probably why I never noticed it before as that's where I keep mine.

I'm not sure if it happens for input method components as well, something I need to look at before filing a bug with Apple.

For now, looks like the work arounds I mentioned are the only solution for you.

#9 Kazu

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 02:26 AM

OK, after more investigation it looks like a Snow Leopard bug (not the one I previously thought it was, something I haven't run into until now). Seems that when Spell Catcher calls the Mac OS X API to register its input method, any input methods that reside in /Library/Input Methods will disappear from the list of Input Sources.

This doesn't happen for those stored in (HOME) ~/Library/Input Methods - probably why I never noticed it before as that's where I keep mine.

I'm not sure if it happens for input method components as well, something I need to look at before filing a bug with Apple.

For now, looks like the work arounds I mentioned are the only solution for you.


Thank you for your investigations.
I tried the method of making a copy of IM into ~/Library/Input Methods/.
It works! I uninstalled and reinstalled SC, but the Japanese IM did not disappeared.
I'll post a message if this kind of problem occur again.

Thanks again,

Kazuo

#10 Evan Gross

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 02:50 AM


Thank you for your quick reply.
I don't know if it was removed from my hard drive. Is there any specific folder that IM is installed in?
I'm using Mac OS X 10.6.4.
I installed and updated Spell Catcher several times, and my IM was disappeared every time.
Now I don't want to click update button...

Thanks,

Kazuo

OK, after more investigation it looks like a Snow Leopard bug (not the one I previously thought it was, something I haven't run into until now). Seems that when Spell Catcher calls the Mac OS X API to register its input method, any input methods that reside in /Library/Input Methods will disappear from the list of Input Sources.

Well, more digging reveals that the above diagnosis, while correct, isn't the actual Mac OS X bug. It's one symptom (of many potential ones) of the real underlying problem.

The true bug is at a fairly low level, and closely related to one I've already filed with Apple. It's related to the APIs that help applications locate standard folders within the Mac OS X file system (the Folder Manager), without having to use the actual folder name. In Spell Catcher's case, it's the Components and Input Methods folders that are located in the various Library folders (top-level, /System, home). It's possible for applications to define and locate their own folders (Library/Application Support/Spell Catcher/References for instance) with these APIs as well. Problem is, after defining about 7 such application-specific folders, the Folder Manager starts to misbehave as it's internal table is a fixed size, and almost full to start with.

The bug I've already reported relates to the fact that when an app adds a new custom folder descriptor, the Folder Manager drops a system-defined one off the bottom of its internal table.

This bug is related to the number of folder descriptors added by the app, but somewhat different and actually even nastier. Even though certain system-defined folder descriptors are still in the Folder Manager's list, it fails to locate them in the (top-level) /Library folder. It finds them in (HOME) ~/Library, and /System/Library - but not in /Library!

This is very nasty, as it affects any APIs that are used by the app that internally use the Folder Manager to locate (certain) standard folders. Attempts to locate a folder in /Library fail, and the results are, well, "undefined". Obviously the API to register input sources uses these APIs. And because of this bug, finds none in /Library/Components or /Library/Input Methods. So it rebuilds the list to be shown in the Input Sources tab, but anything in /Library "goes away".

Anyway, long story short, I need to file yet another bug with Apple. However, I'm not optimistic that it will get fixed any time soon (if ever). It is possible for me to deal with the problem by re-writing the code in Spell Catcher that uses the Folder Manager to, well, not use it anymore. Not terribly difficult, but not a trivial job. No promises regarding if or when.

Like I said above, "nasty".

#11 Evan Gross

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 06:04 AM

Thank you for your investigations.
I tried the method of making a copy of IM into ~/Library/Input Methods/.
It works! I uninstalled and reinstalled SC, but the Japanese IM did not disappeared.
I'll post a message if this kind of problem occur again.

Thanks again,

Kazuo

Just a bit of an update: looks like I may have found a way to work around this bug in Mac OS X. I still have more testing to do, as the side-effects of it are not restricted to installing or updating Spell Catcher’s input method(s). There may be other standard folders in /Library that Spell Catcher or the Mac OS X APIs it uses that are affected as well.

If I knew exactly what causes this bug, or at least why the work around I've found circumvents it, I'd be more certain of its effectiveness.

Still, I have no idea (yet) whether my work around will truly do the trick. And even if it does, I can't say when or if it will be rolled into an update to Spell Catcher X 10.3.x, For sure it will make it into the major upgrade I'm working on (Spell Catcher X 10.4), but it's many months away from being released.

Anyway, thanks for the report. The bug/problem I found when diagnosing it also explains an unsolved mystery! Folks that place Spell Catcher’s input method(s) into /Library/Components or /Library/Input Methods would see (null) or empty path names in the "Install Input Methods" dialog/window, or Spell Catcher would simply not "see" them at all and think they weren't actually installed.

#12 ozdazza

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:08 PM

Evan

I am the same person who posted on the MacUpdate promotion today (4th December, 2010) about the issue of a conflict between SpellCheckX with the popular commercial Japanese input method, ATOK, developed by JUSTSYSTEMS. I felt I needed to warn Japanese uses of this issue because it had me up until 4 o'clock in the morning trying to get my system back to its original state. It is not something I want others to have to go through. I am sure you would understand.

In your troubleshooting, did you confirm what type of keyboard was used by Kazuo? The special Apple Japanese keyboard is very different to the US and even includes dedicated keys for typing in Japanese and typing in English. You can also use a US keyboard with the Japanese OS, but the use of the keyboard is different. So, in Japan, you have users of either a Japanese keyboard or a US keyboard.

Anyway, I am no here to cause an issue, just work through some troubleshooting so I can use SpellCheck. As I mentioned on MacUpdate, I am about to the start the write up of my PhD dissertation and SpellCheck seems to be a great tool to use.

Cheers! :)

Darren
Tokyo

Just a bit of an update: looks like I may have found a way to work around this bug in Mac OS X. I still have more testing to do, as the side-effects of it are not restricted to installing or updating Spell Catcher’s input method(s). There may be other standard folders in /Library that Spell Catcher or the Mac OS X APIs it uses that are affected as well.

If I knew exactly what causes this bug, or at least why the work around I've found circumvents it, I'd be more certain of its effectiveness.

Still, I have no idea (yet) whether my work around will truly do the trick. And even if it does, I can't say when or if it will be rolled into an update to Spell Catcher X 10.3.x, For sure it will make it into the major upgrade I'm working on (Spell Catcher X 10.4), but it's many months away from being released.

Anyway, thanks for the report. The bug/problem I found when diagnosing it also explains an unsolved mystery! Folks that place Spell Catcher’s input method(s) into /Library/Components or /Library/Input Methods would see (null) or empty path names in the "Install Input Methods" dialog/window, or Spell Catcher would simply not "see" them at all and think they weren't actually installed.



#13 Evan Gross

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:01 AM

Evan

I am the same person who posted on the MacUpdate promotion today (4th December, 2010) about the issue of a conflict between SpellCheckX with the popular commercial Japanese input method, ATOK, developed by JUSTSYSTEMS. I felt I needed to warn Japanese uses of this issue because it had me up until 4 o'clock in the morning trying to get my system back to its original state. It is not something I want others to have to go through. I am sure you would understand.

In your troubleshooting, did you confirm what type of keyboard was used by Kazuo? The special Apple Japanese keyboard is very different to the US and even includes dedicated keys for typing in Japanese and typing in English. You can also use a US keyboard with the Japanese OS, but the use of the keyboard is different. So, in Japan, you have users of either a Japanese keyboard or a US keyboard.

Anyway, I am no here to cause an issue, just work through some troubleshooting so I can use SpellCheck. As I mentioned on MacUpdate, I am about to the start the write up of my PhD dissertation and SpellCheck seems to be a great tool to use.

Cheers! :)

Darren
Tokyo


I don't understand - what is the exact problem you are having?
Again, to work around this, simply move ATOK to your home Library.